Different reading orientations give a different perspective

[stubborn_d0nkey]

Well, i dont have time to write a nice opening post but the basic point behind this is if, how, and to what extent do different reading orientations (from right to left, or from left to right) give different perspectives of non-written objects and events and whatnot

[RNB]

It does not have an effect unless you acknowledge that it has an effect. When we read a book, we acknowledge that the words of the book are what give the mood of the book. We even acknowledge that the cover art might give a good idea. Italics give an effect only because we know what they commonly mean. What does reading right to left mean?

[balmung5000]

?RETRAMS UOY EKAM TSOP SIHT SEOD


sapc

[stubborn_d0nkey]

Originally Posted by RNB

It does not have an effect unless you knowledge that it has an effect. When we read a book, we acknowledge that the words of the book are what give the mood of the book. We even acknowledge that the cover art might give a good idea. Italics give an effect only because we know what they commonly mean. What does reading right to left mean?

you dont understand what i mean. reading right to left is reading right to left, like japanese, or arabic, there are languages that are read from the left to the right unlike (most) western languages which are read from left to right. and it has nothing to do with a book, it has to do with how we perceive other objects, landscapes and whatnot due to how we read, that is, to the way we "scan" the surroundings

[RNB]

Do you really think that how we read affects how we view things? We view things based on complete personal choice. Right handed people can learn to be left handed. That alone tells you that the way we read cannot have an ultimate affect on our perspective unless we allow it to.

[DarkAztek]

Reading is not a precursor to learning, really. There's lots of other ways we can learn through oral interpretation or observation. Indeed, most of what we learn is through observation (watching our parents, our habits, blah blah blah). Do you have any links correlating reading and learning?

[stubborn_d0nkey]

Originally Posted by DarkAztek

Reading is not a precursor to learning, really. There's lots of other ways we can learn through oral interpretation or observation. Indeed, most of what we learn is through observation (watching our parents, our habits, blah blah blah). Do you have any links correlating reading and learning?

lol!

its not about learning but about perceiving, Ill try to find some examples to show this when i have the time to search

[DarkAztek]

Yeah, my point is still valid unless you are just talking about how we perceive text... In which case this thread is retarded. Reading is itself a skill that humans made up. It's scribbles on paper, symbols used to get an idea in our head. If you learn to read words upsidedown only, it's the same as learning them right-side up. It's kind of like taking an apple and turning it upsidedown: It's a still an effin' apple no matter how you look at it.

[LightDreamer]

First I'm gonna be kind of an anal asshole and say. No Japanese and Chinese is not written in the same "right to left" context as westerners read "left to right." Japanese and Chinese are written up to down.

So what I mean to say is

Western:
Hello my name is Spongebob

Not Chinese
Spongebob is name my hello.

Chinese
My
name
is
spongebob

Then each sentence is read up down then right to left. So it's like a westernized paragraph turned on its side rather than backwards. And as far as I know, I'm pretty sure it's like that because the characters for oriental writing are easier to read when they're separated because of all the strokes and pieces and what not of one "letter".

(actually I don't know if anyone else finds this interesting but Korean and Thai are read left to right, even though korean symbols are most like japanese but uhh yeah. LOL no just me?)

Anyways, I don't really understand what point you're trying to make. But as far as I understand the question, I don't think it affects the way I perceive or "scan" the world at all. I've read left to right, I've read right to left, I've read up and down and I've read upside down. My brain processes the information and I move on. I don't think there's ever been a point in my life where I saw an object in certain way and then re-evaluated it from a different angle and saw something I wouldn't have been able to see from the original way I looked at it. o_o that was hard to say rofl.

SO BASICALLY, yeah going back to DarkAztek's point about saying an apple is an apple whether you have it upside down or rightside up.

[Nakaichiro]

Strange topic, but I think that the question is being asked a little wrongly.

If your meaning is, like what they would try to teach you in cinematography about how framing 2 people in a scene differently will impact the power of the message you are trying to convey. Like put the more powerful person on the left for western cinema because your mind naturally absorbs things from left to right. So the impact of the persons power on the left is more prevalent than if he were on the right?
My answer is.... meh, the human mind counts body language far higher than order of display when determining things like that. Although I think it might have a very tiny impact, its not enough to make a good movie turn out crap if you put the hero in the right hand side of the frame all the time. Just seems wishy-washy to me.

Now if your meaning is; Through reading and writing in one direction you tend to glance at the world in that same pattern... There are many interesting observations in here. No it does not change the way that you perceive the world. As DA said, its still an apple no matter which direction you look at it from.
However, for a speed visual memory exercise you can see the impact fairly easily. If you were taught your whole life to read from left to right you will notice that your visual memory works faster from left to right. Also your eyes can scan quicker from left to right than from right to left.

It does not change your perception on the world, but it does effect our minds efficiency in scanning and interpreting the scenery.

I will try find some info on it on the net if I can but here is the explanation behind it. From a more scientific point of view.

When you read a sentence your eyes can actually scan ahead of your mind, this is simply a skill that your brain has acquired through learning to read western writing. When you think about it, letters are simply just little pictures and objects put into a specific form and pattern that you have been taught to understand. But you cannot comprehend it backwards anywhere near as fast as you can comprehend it forwards.

The body and mind are defined by habits. If you scan your eyes from left to right you can take an entire picture in quite quickly. If you try to scan from right to left, you will either take the scene in slower (Fractionaly slower but still slower), or your eyes will try to linger on each point of interest for a fraction of a second longer. This is because your mind is not as accustomed to flowing over things from right to left as it is from left to right.

Short answer:
Does it effect the way we perceive the world... Most likely not.
Does it effect the tendency of how our eyes and mind would naturally scan over anything, given the neutral choice. Almost definitely yes.
Does a person reading up down left right, or left right up down have a different view on the world compared to the other... Nope. Their minds just naturally lean towards one pattern of visual observation over the other.

EDIT* fixed some horrible spelling errors. Typing really fast at work = proof reading needed.

[Nakaichiro]

Quick note:
@LightDreamer. You are in a different situation to 99% of pure westerners. You have obviously been taught to read both ways and so it would effect your natural observation tendency differently.

Right handed people can learn to write with the left hand.
People who drive left hand cars can learn to drive right hand cars.
People who read left to right can learn to read right to left.

But if your entire life you have been sitting on only one side of that fence without ever having tried to teach yourself the other, like writing with your left hand, your mind will always tend to act like electricity. Following the easiest path of less resistance. If someone hands you a pen and you are right handed, you will grab it with your right hand regardless of whether they hand you the pen from the left or the right hand side of your body.

That is your subconscious choice without thinking of it. Now if you forced your body to accept the pen with your left hand and attempt to write down the same number it would require more concentration to complete the task because your body and mind have not trained to do this naturally.

Now that is neural muscular training. Although its not as noticeable, your eyes are still controlled by muscles and your neural muscular training is to more naturally memorize and comprehend a scene from left to right. So it will require less concentration than to force yourself to do the same thing from right to left.

[Miburo]

I dunno. I think people scan the horizon or something like that a certain way because that is also what they're accustomed to (Neural muscular training thinger; muscle memory). I don't think the direction you read would effect anything other than the direction you're accustomed to, and therefore more proficient at, reading.

I think any link between reading and how people scan the environment would be correlative, at best. No causation involved, most likely.

[LightDreamer]

Originally Posted by Nakaichiro

Quick note:
@LightDreamer. You are in a different situation to 99% of pure westerners. You have obviously been taught to read both ways and so it would effect your natural observation tendency differently.

Right handed people can learn to write with the left hand.
People who drive left hand cars can learn to drive right hand cars.
People who read left to right can learn to read right to left.

But if your entire life you have been sitting on only one side of that fence without ever having tried to teach yourself the other, like writing with your left hand, your mind will always tend to act like electricity. Following the easiest path of less resistance. If someone hands you a pen and you are right handed, you will grab it with your right hand regardless of whether they hand you the pen from the left or the right hand side of your body.

That is your subconscious choice without thinking of it. Now if you forced your body to accept the pen with your left hand and attempt to write down the same number it would require more concentration to complete the task because your body and mind have not trained to do this naturally.

Now that is neural muscular training. Although its not as noticeable, your eyes are still controlled by muscles and your neural muscular training is to more naturally memorize and comprehend a scene from left to right. So it will require less concentration than to force yourself to do the same thing from right to left.

Actually no, I stopped taking chinese school after like grade 1 or something. And I never "read a book" I was only really learning characters. In fact I can't read chinese, I can't read japanese, I can't read any language other than English. The only reason I know any of what I know is because one time I picked up a chinese book and said why are the lines vertical and my mom said because chinese characters are written from top to bottom. And I said oh. And closed the book and watched sailor moon or something. And I also like to read scantalated japanese manga so I know to read from right to left. So sorry, but I'm in the situation of "pure westerners" whatever you're trying to insinuate from that.

Also, I'm a lifeguard. And to scan a pool you either go left to right, right to left. Or up to down, down to up. You never go left to right. stop close your eyes, turn your head, re-open, left to right.

As in
No:
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Yes
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I also don't really understand what you're trying to say by saying humans use the path of least resistance. Of course we do. I feel this is a duh moment. What are we accomplishing from fighting our dominant hand/foot etc? Why try to make life harder? You roll a ball towards a toddler he will kick it with the foot he wants to kick it with. Tell him not too, he'll throw a fit and cry. Why make the toddler cry? Who does this benefit?

You're kind of making it sound like people have one side of their body that simply can't do anything. I'm pretty sure I've picked up a pen with my left hand or received something with my left hand. I wouldn't say I'm ambidextrous in any sense, but my left hand doesn't just lie there like a lifeless limb only there for symmetry and balance. And in soccer you pass the ball from your right foot to your left foot often.

My dad is "technically" left handed, but he was brought up during an age where being left handed was frowned about. So they forced him to use his right hand. So my dad can now do everything with both his right and left hand. Write, use chopsticks, etc. Whichever hand is most convenient at the time. Also I guess he's an "impure westerner" because he can read both chinese and english. However, though I have great respect for my dad, I wouldn't say he SEES THE WORLD WITH BETTER EYES than any other or is a better man because of this reason specifically.

To be honest, if I had to think about how I observe the world. It's usually. Open my eyes. Think. Oh I wonder what is happening over there. Turn my head right. Oh how interesting. OH WAIT. WHAT HAPPENED OVER THERE. turn my head left. Oh that wasn't as interesting as I thought it would be. Center my head and move on. Even if I'm watching a movie I'm staring at it straight on until something else peaks my attention and I just move my head until what has interested me is now center frame. So if anything my observation method is CENTER IT. CENTER IT GOD DAMN IT. GOOD. NEXT. I'm pretty sure that's how I read too. I just put the word I want to read in the middle whether i'm coming to it from the left or the right or from above.

GODDD THE RAMBLING.

[Nakaichiro]

As in
No:
----------> .
...
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Yes
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<----------
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Very true. But your missing the point, Im not saying that you will scan from left to right and never do it from right to left, just that subconsciously it is easier to scan from left to right if that is what your mind has been trained to do.

As a life guard you may think that you are scanning the pool at random, but in actual fact I think you would find that your mind is following a built in priority system.
If I blindfolded you and took you to the edge of the pool with nobody in it. Then took off the blindfold, you would instantly take in the image as a wide angle peripheral shot with your eyes facing straight ahead. Then your mind would assess if there was anything that caught your "eye" in that peripheral shot. Now if there was not anything that grabbed your attention immediately you would then scan the pool in more detail to double check your peripheral vision. I can almost guarantee that 80% of the time you turn your head to the left first and scan across to the right.
Remember that this is barring external factors like somebody swimming on the right sight of the pool or something.

If the pool is full of people on the right you will obviously look to the right first.

The premise of any scientific experiment is the control experiment, which your example was lacking. Yes you will look all over the pool when it is full, and for the most part your eyes will start at a place of most interest and scan from there.

Im not saying that regardless of what is going on you will always look from left to right. I am saying that you will be more likely to scan a neutral environment from left to right than from right to left or up to down, or bottom to top.

Think about it like this. Take one man who's favorite part of a woman's body is the eyes. Another who's favorite part is the legs. Walk a sexy woman past both of them at the same time and guaranteed they will both start at their personal point of interest and then move across from there. One will start at the eyes and move down, the other at the legs and move up.
That is the persons preference but also, because of that preference, it is the way that your subconscious mind will react to that scenario.

If it is a wide open mountain range view and you like snow topped mountains, then you will start at those mountains, regardless of whether they are on the right or left. But if you are neutral to everything in your immediate peripheral view, then you will tend to scan the view from left to right. Its just more comfortable.

Outside factors can influence you, like a child screaming on the one side of the pool just before you open your eyes. But with no drastic factors, you will tend to begin from the left. Once you have the mental picture of the pool, then it will become random scanning, but the first time, you will tend to go left to right.

[LightDreamer]

Originally Posted by Nakaichiro

Very true. But your missing the point, Im not saying that you will scan from left to right and never do it from right to left, just that subconsciously it is easier to scan from left to right if that is what your mind has been trained to do.

As a life guard you may think that you are scanning the pool at random, but in actual fact I think you would find that your mind is following a built in priority system.
If I blindfolded you and took you to the edge of the pool with nobody in it. Then took off the blindfold, you would instantly take in the image as a wide angle peripheral shot with your eyes facing straight ahead. Then your mind would assess if there was anything that caught your "eye" in that peripheral shot. Now if there was not anything that grabbed your attention immediately you would then scan the pool in more detail to double check your peripheral vision. I can almost guarantee that 80% of the time you turn your head to the left first and scan across to the right.
Remember that this is barring external factors like somebody swimming on the right sight of the pool or something.

If the pool is full of people on the right you will obviously look to the right first.

The premise of any scientific experiment is the control experiment, which your example was lacking. Yes you will look all over the pool when it is full, and for the most part your eyes will start at a place of most interest and scan from there.

Im not saying that regardless of what is going on you will always look from left to right. I am saying that you will be more likely to scan a neutral environment from left to right than from right to left or up to down, or bottom to top.

Think about it like this. Take one man who's favorite part of a woman's body is the eyes. Another who's favorite part is the legs. Walk a sexy woman past both of them at the same time and guaranteed they will both start at their personal point of interest and then move across from there. One will start at the eyes and move down, the other at the legs and move up.
That is the persons preference but also, because of that preference, it is the way that your subconscious mind will react to that scenario.

If it is a wide open mountain range view and you like snow topped mountains, then you will start at those mountains, regardless of whether they are on the right or left. But if you are neutral to everything in your immediate peripheral view, then you will tend to scan the view from left to right. Its just more comfortable.

Outside factors can influence you, like a child screaming on the one side of the pool just before you open your eyes. But with no drastic factors, you will tend to begin from the left. Once you have the mental picture of the pool, then it will become random scanning, but the first time, you will tend to go left to right.

I'm only going to say that some people really honestly automatically scan from top to bottom (of course I don't know their cultural background but I know that many people do).

And if I agree with your premise which I do see. I do tend to at least start from the left during scanning. What I don't see. Is the point.

So what?

How does this affect me as a person?